Episode 1: How I learned what sustainability is

Sustain WP podcast cover
Sustain WP
Episode 1: How I learned what sustainability is

Welcome to Sustain WP, a limited series podcast about digital sustainability and WordPress. I’m your host Nahuai Badiola and in this episode I will explain how I got into WordPress and sustainability, and more importantly how I learned what sustainability is. For this part I’ll be joined by Hannah Smith who had a key role on how I approach the topic nowadays.

In the previous episode I promised you to tell you who the hell I I’m, and since you will be experiencing this journey through my lens I think it makes sense to know, at least, how I got into WordPress and sustainability.

I have a degree on biology, so you could think, aha! that’s where environmental care/interest come from. I’m no saying no but my PhD was on neuroscience, so the link it’s not that obvious.

I also did some post-docs but even if I loved doing research the scientist lifestyle was not align with how I wanted to live. So I decided to become a freelance to have more time and freedom. You can laugh, I’m aware that I’m an optimist, grounded, but an optimist nevertheless.

Long story short, around 2014 I found WordPress and I fell in love with it’s community. Don’t get me wrong, the software was great (it’s even better now) but the people involved with the project tops that.

I took me some time to learn the ropes of been a freelance and become a WordPress developer, but I could say I managed to do it.

I also started to get involved with the community, been a Meetup and WordCamp speaker, a volunteer or organizing a Meetup in my town.

Ok that covers pretty much the WordPress part, but what about the sustainability? 

The inflexion point was when I attended to a talk on WordCamp Pontevedra 2019 by Roberto Vazquez who talked about the environmental impact of websites.

The rationale behind it’s quite simple and obvious, the websites are hosted in servers that need energy and most of it comes from fossil fuels, but I never thought about it before. So in that moment I decided to investigate more about it.

During the last years I’ve been sharing my learnings through my blog, newsletter and podcast. I also gave some talks on Meetups and WordCamps about the topic.

The second tipping point

During this learning I participated in two workshops that impacted me and made me change the perspective on digital sustainability. One of them was the Digital Collage, I did the online version before conducted by Gäel Duez, it was great and then the in person one conducted by Margaux Maugeais on Barcelona. I highly recommend attending to it in the format that is easier for you.

And the other workshop was  Doing the Doughnut Tech created by Hannah Smith and facilitated by her and Alistair Alexander.

This was created on the frame of the Green Web Foundation fellowship. But I think it’s best if Hannah explains her experience creating and conducting it.

You can find the audio transcript of the talk with Hannah Smith below.



Audio transcript

00:00:12 Nahuai 

Welcome to Sustain WP, a limited series podcast about digital sustainability, and WordPress. I’m your host, Nahuai Badiola, and in this episode I will explain you how I got into WordPress and sustainability and more importantly, how I learned what sustainability is. 

00:00:29 Nahuai 

For this part, I will be joined by Hannah Smith, who had a key role on how I approach the topic nowadays. In the previous episode, I promised you to tell who the hell I am, and since you will be experiencing this journey through my lens, I think makes sense to know at least how I got into WordPress and sustainability. 

00:00:49 Nahuai 

I have a degree on biology, so you could think. Uh-huh. That’s where the environmental care or interest comes. 

00:00:56 Nahuai 

From I’m not saying no, but my PhD was in neuroscience, so the link is not that obvious. I did some postdocs, but even if I love doing research, the scientist lifestyle was not aligned with how I wanted to live. So I decided to became a freelance to have more time. 

00:01:16 Nahuai 

And freedom. 

00:01:17 Nahuai 

Yep, you can laugh. I’m aware that I’m an optimist. Grounded, but an optimist nevertheless. Lost very short around 2014, I found WordPress and I fell in love with its community. Don’t get me wrong, the software was great. It’s even better now, but the people involved with the project tops that. 

00:01:38 Nahuai 

It took me some time to learn the ropes of being a freelance and become our press develop. 

00:01:43 Nahuai 

But I could say I managed to do it. I also started to get involved with the community being a meet up and work up speaker, a volunteer or organizing a meet up in my town. OK, that covers pretty much the WordPress part, but what about the sustainability? The inflection point was when I attended. 

00:02:03 Nahuai 

To a talk in work in Ponte Vedra, 2019 by Roberto Vasquez, who talked about the environmental impact of the websites, the rationale behind it is quite simple and obvious. The websites are hosted in servers that need energy and most of it come from fossil fuel. 

00:02:23 Nahuai 

But I never thought about it before. So in that moment I decided to investigate more about it during the last years I’ve been sharing my learnings through my blog newsletter and podcast, and I also gave some talks in meetups and workups about the topic. The 2nd tipping point. During this learning, I participated in two workshops. 

00:02:43 Nahuai 

That impacted me and made me change the perspective on the the sustainability. One of them was the digital collage. 

00:02:51 Nahuai 

I did it the online version before contacted by GAIL Dwight. It was great and then I did it in person contacted by Margo Moyer. I highly recommend attending to it in the format that is easier to you and the other workshop was doing the donut created by Hannah Smith and facilitated by her. 

00:03:11 Nahuai 

And Alistair Alexander. This was created on the frame of the Greenway Foundation Fellowship, but I think it’s best if Han explains her experience creating and conducting it. So. Hello, Hannah. Welcome to sustainable. 

00:03:26 Nahuai 

And before I asked you about the Green Wave Foundation, I would like to ask you, do you remember, when did you started to be interested in details, sustainability. 

00:03:37 Hannah 

It’s such a good question. I know that your journey mirrors my journey very, very similarly, so I think. 

00:03:46 Hannah 

I think this story will be. 

00:03:47 Hannah 

A little familiar to you. 

00:03:49 Hannah 

For me, I remember going to word camp Europe in Belgrade in 2018, and I remember looking around in that conference and thinking, wow, no one here is talking about sustainability in any way shape or form like, no, no thought of. 

00:04:09 Hannah 

Environment issues. Sustainability in in any regard, digital or not. And I remember thinking. 

00:04:15 Hannah 

I really feel like the WordPress community is missing, missing a trick here. 

00:04:20 Hannah 

Actually when I went to word camp Europe. 

00:04:23 Hannah 

The next year in Berlin in 2019, there was a talk, so something shifted. Even in that first year, and it was Jack Lennox who was giving that talk. I’ve always been interested in sustainability and environmental issues. 

00:04:36 Hannah 

Full stop. You know, before I got into digital sustainability, so when I saw Jack’s talk in 2019, I was like, ohh, I’m really interested in this. I’ve I’ve really gotta go. 

00:04:48 Hannah 

So Jack’s talk was a real kind of light bulb moment for me, where I heard Jack speaking and I was like, oh, my God, yeah, there’s this whole relationship between energy and Internet and resource use and and and tech that I had never ever thought about before. 

00:05:10 Hannah 

So what camp Europe? Berlin was a really, really important point for me and then related to that was when I was running my own word camp. So I ran word Camp, Bristol in 2019. And related to that point that I made at the beginning about going to word camp Europe in Belgrade. 

00:05:30 Hannah 

In 2018. 


I was. 

00:05:32 Hannah 

Really determined to try and do something within the word press community around sustainability. So when I did word camp Europe in 2019, so that was in May of 2019, I really, really wanted some sustainability themed talks at that conference at that word camp. 

00:05:49 Hannah 

And we ended up having a whole grain digital come along. We also had a local speaker, Joss from a company called Enviro, but would whole grain Digital spoke about the same topic as Jack? They spoke about digital sustainability. 

00:06:09 Hannah 

In relation to websites, the reason why I mentioned Jack’s talk first was. 

00:06:14 Hannah 

Because when you run a word camp, you don’t get to watch any of the talks live. So I didn’t actually watch whole grain digitals talk until after word Camp Berlin. When I came home and I was watching all the. 

00:06:20 Nahuai 



Recordings that we. 

00:06:28 Hannah 

Made of all the talks, so whilst in real time the whole grain digital talk was first. 

00:06:34 Hannah 

They didn’t actually watch it until after I saw Jack’s talk, but essentially, those two things came along for me at the same time and both gave me that light bulb moment and really got me interested in this topic. 

00:06:50 Nahuai 

That’s that’s really interesting because 2019 is like a magical year for for me too, because it was the one I realized with a talk in work in Pontevedra that there was a a short talk about this. It was like, of course this is obvious. And that was the the the same year that I was in Berlin as volunteer. 

00:07:11 Nahuai 

And I couldn’t go to Jack Lennox talk because I was doing volunteering stuff in that moment. So I also. 

00:07:20 Nahuai 

So the the Jack Lennon’s presentation after the one on Ponte Vedra, even if it was after. 

00:07:26 Nahuai 

So it’s funny, these these kind of things, yeah. 

00:07:31 Hannah 

The lenders where we met for the first time as well, wasn’t it because we were met at the contributor day and we were doing stuff on WordPress TV. 

00:07:33 Nahuai 

Yep, awesome. 

00:07:39 Nahuai 

Yeah. Subtitling. Yeah. The trying to to improve the workflow for subtitling the, the the videos. Yeah. Yeah. 

00:07:39 Hannah 

It’s the very start of exactly. 

00:07:48 Hannah 

Yeah, that’s a funny a funny coincidence there. 

00:07:48 Nahuai 

So cool. 

00:07:53 Nahuai 

Yeah. So I I always talk about the importance of work camps and being in WordPress events and the the, the how great the this community is. But yeah, this is just another example, so. 

00:08:04 Hannah 

Isn’t it just though, right? Yeah, I think I think that’s a really important point about the power that these word camps have to introduce new ideas to people that they would never normally find themselves exposed to. Both our journeys were ignited by word camp talks in this realm and how life changing those things have been for us. It’s kind of amazing. 

00:08:26 Hannah 

Really is. 

00:08:28 Hannah 

I said. 

00:08:28 Nahuai 

It is. It is we. We can’t really cannot do of advertisements or spots of how WordPress change my life or something. 

00:08:35 Nahuai 

Like that because. 

00:08:37 Nahuai 

We have really good examples and they are real. They we are not making them up. 

00:08:42 Hannah 

Exactly. And I mean, I’ve kind of completely changed career now because of that. And I know that we’re gonna. We’re gonna talk. 

00:08:49 Hannah 

About that in a second. 

00:08:52 Nahuai 

Indeed we we can go to to that part because I would like. 

00:08:56 Nahuai 

To to briefly explain to someone that maybe only heard about the Green Wave Foundation, if you can explain in few words what it is I asked you asking you because now you are part of the Green Wave foundation. You were before a Green Wave foundation fellow. As we will talk about it later. But can you do an overview that now? 

00:09:16 Nahuai 

That you are in or what are you trying to do or yeah. 

00:09:20 Nahuai 

To achieve. 

00:09:21 Hannah 

Yeah. So you know my, my digital sustainability journey has ended up with me now being director of operations at the Green Web Foundation, which I’m incredibly proud and it’s very much a pinch me moment when I look around and. 

00:09:35 Hannah 

Think how how. 

00:09:36 Hannah 

Did that happen? 

00:09:37 Hannah 

How did I get here? But I feel very happy to be in this organization. 

00:09:42 Hannah 

And the Green Webb Foundation is a non profit organization. 

00:09:49 Hannah 

We’re based in the Netherlands with some of the team over in Berlin. I’m in the UK, as you might be able to tell by my accent. For those of you listening and and what the green Web Foundation does is we are advocating for a just and sustainable Internet and specifically we talk a lot about. 

00:10:08 Hannah 

Getting the Internet to be fossil free by 2030, so we’re very, very interested in the resources and the energy that powers the Internet because as we both know from those talks that inspired us to learn more about. 

00:10:23 Hannah 

This topic it’s it’s pretty. 

00:10:25 Hannah 

And we do that in a number of different ways. 

00:10:29 Hannah 

Many people, I think if they’re interested in digital sustainability might well have come across our tools. I know. 

00:10:36 Hannah 

The the Green Web Foundation tools are some of the 1st. 

00:10:38 Hannah 

Things I’ve found. 

00:10:39 Hannah 

When I was interested in this journey. 

00:10:40 Nahuai 

Yeah, me too. 

00:10:41 Hannah 

So we’ve got this. 

00:10:42 Hannah 

Really cool little thing you can put in any website. 

00:10:46 Hannah 

URL and you can find out whether that’s hosted on green energy or not. So is that hosting company buying green energy using green energy or otherwise using offsets to make their energy green? It’s a really cool tool it it sounds so simple, but crikey, now I work at the Greenwood. 

00:11:06 Hannah 

Foundation, I realized just how much complexity goes into. 

00:11:11 Hannah 

Making that tool. 

00:11:12 Hannah 

So we’ve got that as a really cool tool. We’ve also got the green web directory which we have just launched a beta version of which I am super proud of. 

00:11:23 Hannah 

And that is where. 

00:11:24 Hannah 

You can look for alternative hosting suppliers. 

00:11:27 Nahuai 

Yeah, that’s the directory I usually point out in my talks when I talk about about it. Yeah, it’s like the reference, yeah. 

00:11:27 Hannah 

You were all verified green. 

00:11:35 Hannah 

Yeah, it is. I I don’t know if you’ve seen our new beta version yet, but it’s like loads better like, yeah. 


I’m very, very fine with that. 

00:11:43 Nahuai 

I’ve remembered the old one. I don’t think I see the the. I saw the the new one. The old one was pretty much a list. It wasn’t too appealing for for the design point of view, but. 

00:11:54 Nahuai 

Yeah, I will take a. 


It’s been. 

00:11:55 Hannah 

It’s been my summer project. Basically, we had funding for it and it’s my summer project and I think you’ll see the potential. Anyway, I digress. So we we have these open tools, we also have an open source software package called. 

00:11:56 Nahuai 

Look to the new one. 



00:12:09 Hannah 

Two dot JS, which allows people to measure the CO2 emissions of websites. And that’s huge. Hugely popular. It’s used in. 

00:12:19 Hannah 

Like Mozilla life. 

00:12:19 Nahuai 

Yeah, a lot of tools are are built on top of that or they are using it as a library. 

00:12:24 Nahuai 

Right. Yeah, really. 

00:12:26 Hannah 

Yeah. I mean pretty much that’s the aim of. 

00:12:28 Hannah 

The game for our tools. 

00:12:29 Hannah 

Is they’re all open source and they they become part of the infrastructure of how we measure CO2 emissions or and the long term gain is how we measure the sustainability of the Internet by bringing in other factors as well. And I know we’re going to talk about some of those other factors in a bit because those other factors were something I explored a lot in my fellowship. 

00:12:49 Hannah 

Two, but. 

00:12:50 Nahuai 

Yeah, indeed. If you want, we can go for for that. And 1st, how did you heard about this fellowship program that you have they have, they have you have now? 

00:13:04 Hannah 

Yeah, yeah. So I. 

00:13:07 Hannah 

Mean the fellowship was. 

00:13:11 Hannah 

We gained funding for the fellowship, and it’s a really nice thing that we do beyond offering these open source tools. I heard about it because I was really involved with climate action dot tech. 

00:13:24 Hannah 

And Chris Adams, who’s the? 

00:13:24 Nahuai 

Ah yeah. 

00:13:26 Hannah 

Who’s our Ed at the green at executive director? 

00:13:29 Hannah 

Sorry, I wouldn’t use that acronyms sorry understanding. 

00:13:34 Hannah 

Chris Adams, who’s our Exec executive director at the Green Web Foundation, is also one of the key organisers in Cat Climate Action Tech and Chris approached me about the fellowship and said, hey, you know, actually, would you consider? 

00:13:48 Hannah 

Coming for it because at that time the Green Web Foundation was still getting known. It was growing and evolving, and the fellowship was brand new. And so it was. They wanted to make sure they had, you know, some of the the right people lined up for it. 

00:14:06 Hannah 

Yeah. So that, I mean, Chris, so Chris told me about it basically and that’s that’s how I heard about it. 

00:14:11 Hannah 

And at first I was like. 

00:14:14 Hannah 

What is a fellowship? Sorry I had not heard that term before. I didn’t know what it meant, and so I was asking. Everyone was like, what is a fellowship? I understand that they’re quite common thing. It’s quite a common thing. But yeah, I was a bit unsure. 


At the beginning. 

00:14:29 Nahuai 

It is depending of the background. For me it it’s been really funny because now I’m one of the fellowships of the new cohort of the. 

00:14:37 Nahuai 

And I joke because when I was doing science, it was pretty common to have fellowship. So I’ve been a fellow for a long time, studying neuroscience and whatever, and I was pretty used to the this name, and now I’m like, going back to be a fellow. And it’s very funny. 

00:14:58 Nahuai 

For me, like 15 years after the. 

00:15:01 Nahuai 

And, but yeah, yeah, it’s it’s it’s also really different from what I experienced in the in the scientific part, because this fellowship, it’s really open and it’s like you, you feel like at home. I don’t know how was the first cohort, but the second one that we I have another. 

00:15:21 Nahuai 

For fellows that time and we meet. 

00:15:24 Nahuai 

Every week and it’s really nice to meet with them and also with with Catherine and Chris and and Michelle, it’s like one hour, a bit less of just chatting about things that interest all of us or or people are coming to explain. So it’s really really. 

00:15:45 Nahuai 

Nice. So please I digress. Also, I digress. Please explain how was your your experience and 1st how did you come with the project with a project or how yeah the idea. 

00:15:58 Hannah 

Well, I mean my experience was very much as you described it, very supportive atmosphere. I learned loads. I had my mind expanded in all kinds. 

00:16:09 Hannah 

Of different ways. 

00:16:10 Hannah 

That I wasn’t really expecting and you know I crikey, when I started the fellowship that the. 

00:16:18 Hannah 

Idea of the core idea or the core research question of the fellowship is to explore how. 

00:16:26 Hannah 

Well, they the. 

00:16:27 Hannah 

The proper term is how digital rights and climate justice intersect, or how they relate to one another in in sort of slightly more straightforward language. 

00:16:38 Hannah 

And I started honestly with not really feeling I understood what digital rights meant or really what climate just this meant. I had a lot of imposter syndrome throughout the whole of the fellowship because I just hadn’t. I really didn’t understand these terms at all. And you know. 

00:16:57 Hannah 

There were a few people. 

00:16:58 Hannah 

You were like Doctor Fika who was just finishing a PhD and I said to Chris a couple. 

00:17:03 Hannah 

Of times. Are you sure I should? 

00:17:05 Hannah 

Be here. Like, are you? You know I did. Did you make? 

00:17:08 Hannah 

A mistake asking me to come. 

00:17:10 Hannah 

But actually what I realized was that I did. 

00:17:14 Hannah 

I had my my mind expanded and because I was exploring a lot of these issues for the first. 

00:17:19 Hannah 

Time I blogged about it a lot. 

00:17:22 Hannah 

Just being really honest about what I was learning, what I was struggling with, what what I did and didn’t understand, which was not really very much to start with. But actually having come out the other end of it. 

00:17:35 Hannah 

Being able to reflect on that whole transformative journey and being able to. 

00:17:41 Hannah 

Allow other people to feel comfortable with not knowing these things as well. It was really, really good actually, so it it was. I think I used this phrase already, a very mind expanding. Yeah. Process for me. And so you asked me about the project. 

00:17:59 Hannah 

As well. 

00:18:01 Hannah 

I think you wanted me to, yeah. 

00:18:01 Nahuai 

Yeah. Where? Where? The idea come from? I I want to reflect also on that point of being honest and open about you don’t really know about some concepts because the same happened to me and. 

00:18:15 Nahuai 

So I I was already worn because I I was already talking with you every now and then. 

00:18:21 Nahuai 

And I knew about your process. Also, you were blogging quite a lot. That was nice to see, like kind of of a diary. And I tried to mimic in some way in in my in my 3 posts. 

00:18:33 Nahuai 

Now, and I was also chatting with other fellows that splitting your experience, like be honest, you don’t have to explain in your first post what you really want to do. And you know everything, know the the idea is to learn during the process and you can be honest about it and there is no problem with that. So thanks for. 

00:18:54 Nahuai 

For open the the the way for others and. 

00:18:58 Hannah 

That’s that’s cool. 

00:19:00 Nahuai 

Yeah. And then going back to the idea, because I really like the idea. So I really want to know how you put the pieces together. I did know, but I want other people also to know, how did you put the pieces together and came up with the project? Yeah. 

00:19:13 Hannah 

Yeah. I mean, I think I would just before we move on would say what an amazing opportunity that fellowship was for me. I think you feel the same as well. I have never had in my whole life the experience of just learning for learning. 

00:19:32 Hannah 

Like and. That’s really what the fellowship felt like for me. You know, school, university, you’ve got exams or you’ve got specific objectives you’re trying to meet with the fellowship. It felt like this wonderful gift of just being able to go off and explore things that were interesting. 

00:19:51 Hannah 

And so that’s how my project came about because. 

00:19:55 Hannah 

I started off with like wanting to do another version of this campaign that I’d run called let’s green the web and that was something I did with climate action dot tech and the idea of climate of the campaign. Let’s green the web was to raise awareness about the fact that websites have CO2 emission and that we can actually think about measuring. 

00:20:17 Hannah 

Through the use of energy, the CO2 emissions of using software. So let’s green the web was primarily a Twitter campaign asking people to take a website that they like, measure it, and if it was performing badly, to tell them about it. It was a really simple idea and it was good fun I. 

00:20:33 Hannah 

Really enjoyed doing. 

00:20:34 Hannah 

It so it’s. 

00:20:35 Hannah 

Yeah, it was. 

00:20:37 Hannah 

So I started with the fellowship. I was like. 

00:20:39 Hannah 

Well, how can I? 

00:20:40 Hannah 

Do let’s green the Web Part 2. 

00:20:43 Hannah 

Where can I take some of these ideas that I’m learning from the fellowship about a deeper definition of sustainability and how could I apply that to the next version of let’s green the web? So my ideas were like, you know, there’s more to sustainability than just CO2 emissions. 

00:21:03 Hannah 

And as the fellowship progressed, I became quite. 

00:21:07 Hannah 

Annoyed. Quite unnerved by this fact that people were equating website sustainability as only being about CO2 emissions and how much energy was being used, that that became a very. 

00:21:24 Hannah 

Simple equation, but sustainability is much broader than. 

00:21:28 Hannah 

That and so when I was exploring the this what on Earth climate justice meant this part of the research question, I started to really find different ways of articulating and exploring what sustainability. 

00:21:44 Hannah 

And so there is a blog post that I wrote where I spent Oh my God, I fell down this enormous research hole. 


I must have spent. 

00:21:52 Hannah 

About a month, 3 weeks a month, just trying to understand what sustainability meant. 

00:21:58 Hannah 

I was just reading. 

00:21:59 Hannah 

Everything and clicking links and. 

00:22:02 Hannah 

Falling down research holes all over the place. 

00:22:04 Hannah 

But what I. 

00:22:05 Hannah 

Said wrong was donor economics. The donor economics framework became the most accessible and understandable way of exploring sustainability. 

00:22:17 Hannah 

And I pivoted my research project instead of trying to figure out how to apply a broader definition of sustainability or donor economics to let green the web, I thought, do you know what, first of all, just going to forget the let’s green the web idea and I’m just going? 

00:22:34 Hannah 

To explore this idea of. 

00:22:36 Hannah 

Using donor economics to. 

00:22:40 Hannah 

Try and articulate what digital sustainability is, so I came up with this workshop idea and you and many other fantastic people from cat all decided to come along to this workshop and the idea of the workshop was to look at the 21 dimensions that donor. 

00:22:59 Hannah 

Economics users to talk about sustainability and figure out how those do or don’t apply. 

00:23:06 Hannah 

To digital or the digital tech industry and therefore to start to build up a picture of. 

00:23:12 Hannah 

Where we have pain points or opportunities in digital in the digital tech sector, in relationship in relation to to sustainability. 

00:23:23 Hannah 

I still like it was a big project very. 

00:23:27 Hannah 

Interesting. And yeah, I guess that’s the sort of potted history of of how it came to be. 

00:23:34 Nahuai 

Yeah. I I I want as a participant to to the, to the workshop and I found it really an at lining and really clever way to try to expand the view and try to avoid this carbon carbon tunnel vision that we have and I. 

00:23:53 Nahuai 

Even now that I know that their sustainability. 

00:23:56 Nahuai 

It’s more when I communicated, I find that the best examples and everything it goes to the carbon because it’s easier to have numbers. So to have examples. So we have to really do like an effort to go and do one step aside or back and take the bigger picture. 

00:24:17 Nahuai 

So that was the worship and it was with other people. And it was super Interactive. I I remember having a mirror board that was plenty with plenty of positives and ideas. Thank you. 

00:24:29 Nahuai 

Because you run it in in different groups. I was on one of them. I think we were like 4-5 six people. 

00:24:37 Nahuai 

But you run it. I don’t. I think like four or five times. And then you did together 3 three times together with Alistair. You did a really nice write up about it. So I I will put the link to doingthedonut.com the the link because I think it was a big, big. 

00:24:41 Hannah 

Three times, yeah. 

00:24:56 Nahuai 

Effort to put. 

00:24:57 Nahuai 

And then to put the idea before and the mirror and everything and run the. But then the exercise of trying to summarize and and having a conclusion, you did a great work together with Alistair so. 

00:25:12 Hannah 

Yeah. Yeah. Well. 

00:25:13 Hannah 

We thank. Thank you. That’s really kind it. 

00:25:15 Hannah 

Was a bit. It was very enjoyable though, and I learned. 

00:25:18 Hannah 

From it and I think we should mention Alistair more formally here, because the fellowship came with a project sub budget. 

00:25:26 Hannah 

So we had a few €1000 that we could spend. However we wanted to support the project and Alistair was someone Alistair Alexander was someone I had met through cat and we’d already had some chats about exploring the donor. And I was actually able to use some of that budget to get a bit of Alistair’s time. 

00:25:47 Hannah 

I mean, he put way more time in than I was able to pay him for, of course, but. 

00:25:52 Hannah 

It was nice. 

00:25:52 Hannah 

To be able to kind of show him some. 

00:25:58 Hannah 

You know to to, to give him something as a, as a sign of gratitude and appreciation for all the effort that he put in because he helped me run the workshops and he helped me assimilate, assimilate all of that information. And that was weeks and weeks and weeks of work, hundreds of comments, hundreds of cross post it notes. 

00:26:19 Hannah 

Thinking everywhere but yes. And I wrote it up really thoroughly in doing the donut dot tech, so it’s a very comprehensive write up of of where things got to. 

00:26:29 Nahuai 

Yeah. Yeah, right. Its.techitsnot.com. So I will put the, the the right link in the show notes. And also I would like to talk about the people theme part because I’m also experienced that part and it’s super nice to have a space to explore, do some research and then if you are in the middle term. 

00:26:50 Nahuai 

Like I was. So imagine a bit of context. I was so. 

00:26:55 Nahuai 

In love with the idea of the worship of Hannah, that was like, this is really clever. I have to take this idea of philosophy of the donut economics and bring it to the WordPress ecosystem. OK, so that was the initial idea. And it indeed, that was the project I presented was like, OK, let’s start trying to to go to the specifics. 

00:27:15 Nahuai 

And see which of the ceilings and. 

00:27:19 Nahuai 

Uh makes sense for I was really struggling to put because yours was in, in general, digital sustainability, so it was broader, even even, even though there were some of the limits or social things that were didn’t make so much sense. 

00:27:38 Nahuai 

So much but more or less it held up. But when I tried to downscale to WordPress it was really difficult. I was. 

00:27:45 Nahuai 

It’s like, OK, so maybe this doesn’t work as I thought that it would, but I would like to keep the the idea, the philosophy, the essence, the and the essence is try to bring some more, a broader or annalistic view to the sustainability in WordPress. 

00:28:05 Nahuai 

Object not only in the CMS but also in the event. 

00:28:09 Nahuai 

And I was preparing, preparing a workshop for doing it, for running it, and the idea was to document it well. So that workshop could be run by other person, but. 

00:28:20 Nahuai 

One day I was talking with Hannah as I. 

00:28:23 Nahuai 

Do sometimes and it was. 

00:28:25 Nahuai 

Like I feel. 

00:28:26 Nahuai 

Like there is no podcast tackling the sustainability part, but in a broader sense because there are some like green or environmental variables that I really like and enjoy, but they are. 

00:28:39 Nahuai 

Quite focused on green it and they are quite technical. 

00:28:44 Nahuai 

And they are not only for word presses like so. I would like to do something with broader view of of the sustainability and focus on workers. And I say OK and why. 

00:28:56 Nahuai 

Why don’t you change the project but like what I already did the midterm presentation. 

00:29:04 Nahuai 

What are you? 

00:29:05 Nahuai 

But after that frightening moment, I started to think that that format could be more beneficial for the for the idea and I I think that bringing some people of the Community here to to do some interviews and then share it and maybe if we are lucky. 

00:29:25 Nahuai 

People could post comments in. 

00:29:28 Nahuai 

The in the episodes, and so it was like this makes sense. 

00:29:34 Nahuai 

So and I want to be thankful again for the in the for the Green Foundation, because when I went to the coordinator, so Catherine, I said I came up with this new idea. I know that we are past the middle point, but how do you see it and you say I see that you are really. 

00:29:53 Nahuai 

Really excited about it and you already thought about the structure and the benefits. So go ahead. 

00:30:02 Nahuai 

And here we are. 

00:30:04 Hannah 

But I think. 

00:30:05 Hannah 

That’s the beauty of having that kind of. 

00:30:09 Hannah 

Under boundaried. 

00:30:12 Hannah 

Time to kind of wander through different ideas, try things out. I mean, it’s a real gift to have, and I know it’s something you and I have talked about a lot, how we can make that a possibility for more people within the word press community. 

00:30:28 Hannah 

Is it? 

00:30:29 Hannah 

It’s truly been a transformative experience for me. I mean, I’m at the end of it sort of a year out of the end of it, you you haven’t quite finished. 

00:30:36 Hannah 

Yet, so I think you’re still turning into the beautiful butterfly. Your metamorphosis are still happening, but yeah, it is quite an amazing thing to do, and I’m really glad that you chose to. 

00:30:49 Hannah 

Work on something. 

00:30:51 Hannah 

That you are really good at as. 


Well, so. 


But I think. 

00:30:56 Nahuai 

Thank you. 


We should come back to that. 

00:30:57 Hannah 

Point of taking the don’t doing the doughnut workshops though, and bringing them to WordPress cause I still remain absolutely convinced that like you, there’s a really, really good idea in there and I really think based on my experience of running my own fellowship project. 

00:31:15 Hannah 

Just looking at how the conversations changed around what people regard sustainability is and how broader people’s horizons became. 

00:31:25 Hannah 

I really strongly believe that that’s would be a beautiful thing to bring in to, to yeah, to the WordPress community. We’ve just gotta find some funding to make that happen. I think to, you know, to really make it good because we know it’s a lot of work and I think that’s what you realized as well. 

00:31:43 Hannah 

When you were. 

00:31:43 Hannah 

Looking at it, it’s like what? 

00:31:44 Hannah 

That’s how I felt. 

00:31:48 Hannah 

Too. So I think that idea is still there, and if anyone’s listening and anyone has some good ideas as to how we could make that. 

00:31:55 Hannah 

Happen and give us a. 

00:31:56 Hannah 

Shout, I’m keen, keen to explore. 

00:32:00 Hannah 

The idea is not dead. 

00:32:00 Nahuai 

Yeah, but by the way. 

00:32:02 Nahuai 

Yeah, by, by the way, did this post. This podcast has several purposes. One of them is bring awareness to the workers community about the sustainability, but also bring my experience. And in this case, Hannahs on the Greenway Foundation Fellowship program and invite for the people that probably when you listen to this it it will be. 

00:32:22 Nahuai 

Open a new. 

00:32:23 Nahuai 

The new portal, it will be open in few months, so if you are interested in doing these kind of things or taking up the idea of the this workshop that we are mentioning, you are more than welcome to to apply to it and also spread the word. If you think there is someone that could apply to it. 

00:32:41 Nahuai 

Yeah. So before we move to the. 

00:32:44 Nahuai 

3 pillars of the sustainability that are going to be quite important in this podcast series. Do you want to share any other thing that you learned along along the the project or yeah, during this this months, years. 

00:33:00 Hannah 

Yeah, I might say something quite radical actually. So when I started the fellowship, I I thought capitalism was brilliant, and I learned loads about why capitalism isn’t brilliant, and particularly maybe. 

00:33:18 Hannah 

Some of the the more extreme versions versions of capitalism we have these days like neoliberalism, I learned loads of these terms. I’ve never really studied this stuff before and at the start of the fellowship I would have. 

00:33:31 Hannah 

Been very, very. 

00:33:32 Hannah 

Very uncomfortable with saying things like I’m now uncomfortable with. 

00:33:38 Hannah 

Capitalism. I’m now uncomfortable with the way that a lot of our systems work, and I’m uncomfortable with the way that a. 

00:33:45 Hannah 

Lot of our tech. 

00:33:47 Hannah 

Big tech companies work and operate. 

00:33:50 Hannah 

And those have been really big mindset shifts for me where in exploring, sorry, did my doctor’s part then just went off on one in the background. She does. Yeah, she does. She definitely does. 

00:34:02 Nahuai 

He has opinions also she. 

00:34:08 Hannah 

She’s like, I agree. 

00:34:11 Hannah 

Yeah, I I would say for me that was a big turning point where I started to really face up to some of the political systems that we have and started to face up to some of the good parts, but also some of the negative parts and to. 

00:34:30 Hannah 

Start to broaden my horizons there around system change and what works and what doesn’t. I probably always sat sort of somewhere in the set. 

00:34:40 Hannah 

Matter when it comes to politics, but. 

00:34:43 Hannah 

Yeah, I I feel like. 

00:34:44 Hannah 

That that shifted for me as well actually, and I really, really was not expecting that either from just learning and talking and thinking differently about things. 

00:34:57 Nahuai 

Yeah, yeah. The the ripple effect is is really amazing. How can you start just hearing a simple idea like Internet use energy and then you go down the rabbit hole. 

00:35:11 Nahuai 

And after few months you are changing a bit. 

00:35:14 Nahuai 

Political point of view on on your world view, it’s it’s amazing how. 

00:35:20 Nahuai 

Yeah. How these things work, yeah. 

00:35:21 Hannah 

It’s probably better to. 

00:35:23 Hannah 

Think of it as a world view rather than a political view, because that might put some people off. I could. 


Just, yeah. 

00:35:29 Hannah 

You do you an opportunity to as an adult, learn and think differently and those opportunities just don’t come along often I don’t think and we know with sustainability that we have to radically. 

00:35:41 Hannah 

Think differently and radically shift our systems. 

00:35:45 Hannah 

Into more healthy ways of doing things. If we’re going to tackle the climate crisis and the the A nature crisis as well that we certainly have in the UK so that that, yeah, that shift in thinking so crucial if we’re going to really make a difference I think. 

00:36:03 Nahuai 

Yeah, yeah. And for that, I think it makes a lot of sense to understand the three pillars of sustainability that I have to admit that they are fairly new to me also. So in this in some point during this. 

00:36:16 Nahuai 

Travel. Probably talking with Hannah because a lot of things happened when I talk with Hannah and a lot of ideas come come up when the first time. Nice. Nice to hear that. 

00:36:26 Hannah 

And same for me too. 

00:36:32 Nahuai 

Good, good. When was the first time that you hear about this? So because if you go to to the Wikipedia page, you can see the picture of the three pillars of the sustainability and everything. So it’s something that it’s supposed to be well known, but it’s not. So you can just tell me, how was the first time that you were approached? But this idea or? 

00:36:52 Nahuai 

You got to it. 

00:36:54 Hannah 

Yeah. So. 

00:36:57 Hannah 

Economics is something that’s always interested me, and I know we’ve talked a lot about donor economics and. 

00:37:04 Hannah 

Economics has a way of representing the three pillars, which aren’t necessarily pillars. They’re they’re circles, actually. 

00:37:13 Hannah 

And I I did a level in economics so. 

00:37:17 Hannah 

That’s an English school qualification that you do between the ages of 16 and 18. 

00:37:20 Nahuai 


00:37:22 Hannah 

So I did a level. 

00:37:24 Hannah 

Economics and actually wanted to go to university to study economics, but ended up doing computer science. That’s a that’s a podcast for another time. They’ve never been scared of economics, something that’s has economics in the title. 

00:37:37 Hannah 

Actually quite drawn to it and. 

00:37:41 Hannah 

So in trying to understand what climate justice was, we’ve mentioned this a little bit already. I found myself reading all sorts of things about ESG frameworks and ESG is is basically a short shorthand for these three pillars of sustainability. 

00:38:01 Hannah 

And three pillars are the E is one of the pillars. I wouldn’t say the first because I don’t think they come in. 

00:38:08 Hannah 

Order in one. 

00:38:09 Hannah 

2-3 I think they’re, you know, they’re kind of. 

00:38:12 Hannah 

Everywhere, everywhere, all at once. 

00:38:15 Nahuai 

Yep, that’s right. 

00:38:16 Hannah 

So one of the pillars, the. 

00:38:18 Hannah 

E pillar is environment. 

00:38:21 Hannah 

And that talks about the limitations that the natural world imposes upon us. So it’s it’s where we think about what our ecosystems can provide and also what level of tension they can take from humans, what levels of kind of change they can. 

00:38:40 Hannah 

Take from humans. 

00:38:42 Hannah 

And we can talk a bit more about the the E. 

00:38:44 Hannah 

Pillar in a bit, but that’s one of the pillars and that is the E of ES. 

00:38:48 Hannah 

G the second pillar, or one of the other pillars is the S pillar which stands. 

00:38:55 Hannah 

In the SG. 

00:38:58 Hannah 

Terminology stands for social social factors and then. 

00:39:02 Hannah 

The donor economics framework, it talks about this idea of a social foundation. 

00:39:08 Hannah 

Well, this was completely new for me. This whole idea of sustainability having. 

00:39:14 Hannah 

And a massive weighting around social factors, big learning point for me, I always thought sustainability was more about the environmental side of things, but what I learned was that you can’t think about the environment factors without thinking about people without thinking about society, because these two things relate to each other. 

00:39:34 Hannah 

And if you just think about them in silos, you end up doing really ridiculous things and I. 

00:39:40 Hannah 

Kind of found. 

00:39:41 Hannah 

Some kind of quite interesting articles and case studies as part of the fellowship around what happens when you just think about the environment with no people in it, and basically you end up forcing indigenous people. 

00:39:55 Hannah 

Out of the lands that they naturally belong in and actually loads of research around how indigenous people are actually beneficial for those environments because they’ve lived there for thousands of years and they’ve lived there sustainably. 

00:40:12 Hannah 

So it was really eye opening for me. This whole S found this whole S Social foundation society pillar. And then and again, you know, there’s there’s loads we could unpack in that that in itself, but then we’ll come to the last. 

00:40:26 Hannah 

Pillow, which is. 

00:40:27 Hannah 

The G in ESG that stands for governance. 

00:40:32 Hannah 

Don’t. Economics doesn’t talk about the third pillar in quite the same way the way I think about that G pillar, that G thing is around decision making. 

00:40:44 Hannah 

And around how we value different things and that’s actually where economics, that’s basically what economics is, is is how valuing stuff, how you value it. And so in donor economics they have this seven ways of thinking like a 21st century economists. There’s an absolutely awesome book. 

00:40:59 Hannah 

Called about it. 

00:41:01 Hannah 

And for me, those seven ways of. 

00:41:03 Hannah 

Thinking which are. 

00:41:06 Hannah 

Which for me form the basis of that, that third pillar, that G governance pillar or that that third sort of set of things, but I think yeah, we should probably stop talking about them as pillars because circles is a much better way to think. 

00:41:20 Hannah 

About them overlapping. 

00:41:21 Hannah 

Circles because you can’t think about one without the other, and you just can’t disentangle. 

00:41:27 Hannah 

One set of issues from another because there’s touch points everywhere. Such interesting stuff. 

00:41:33 Nahuai 

Yeah, such an interesting idea, because recently I was talking with Nora and I was talking about the pillars, and I was saying to her they are pillars, but they are really intertwined together. So I I don’t know. And she was like, I will write down the ideas. 

00:41:53 Nahuai 

A designer like I will write down the idea, so maybe I could generate in some point some diagram or something. 

00:42:02 Nahuai 

This it’s it suits better the the. Yeah. This relationship between the the pillars, I will probably keep calling them pillars for the for this podcast series, but keep in mind that when I refer to that the the the there is a lot of overlap and. 

00:42:22 Nahuai 

I was when when I discovered this, I I’ve been trying to research a bit about it and also put it in the context of WordPress and my Last Post in the Green Foundation block was sustainability as an umbrella term because I feel like a lot of things can go under that. 

00:42:42 Nahuai 

Term and it it’s a quite short and simple post, but it was for me also like trying to keep in. 

00:42:52 Nahuai 

And that this is when we talk about sustainability. We are aiming for these three pillars to to come together and I see a lot of overlaps between all of them. But when we are tackling also the long lasting of open source project which is one of the big things that we would like to tackle as sustainability team in. 

00:43:12 Nahuai 

Purpose the social and economic part. They are really intertwined. 

00:43:18 Nahuai 

For my as as I see it, at least because. 

00:43:22 Nahuai 

If you want to have a healthy ecosystem, you you should have a diverse group of people that have a diverse funding mechanism, some some of them can be fully sponsored, others may be freelance, but it would be nice if the freelance can also access to some funding so. 

00:43:42 Nahuai 

And and also lowering the the the entry level for people that maybe socially they don’t have access to, some to to give some. 

00:43:53 Nahuai 

Time back that that’s a I’m going down the rabbit hole talking about the specifics. I didn’t want to, but just to explain that they are really intertwined and and when you start seeing the connection, it’s like, OK, we we should take and talk about it as a whole or keep it in mind at least. 

00:44:13 Hannah 

You’ve actually see when you and I talk, we do always spark all these ideas and actually I just had an idea about a better way to represent the three pillars. I actually might be like as a platted. 

00:44:26 Hannah 

So like you know, you have 3 strands, but you know. 

00:44:28 Hannah 

Like you plant. 

00:44:29 Hannah 

Hair and you sort of make pigtails in, in, in someone’s hair. Actually, the three pillars might be better represented as a plat because you know they they weave in amongst each other. 

00:44:31 Nahuai 


00:44:39 Nahuai 

Ah, now, now. Now I get it. OK. OK. 

00:44:43 Hannah 

Maybe that’s an idea we can put to Nora. 

00:44:45 Nahuai 

That’s a nice idea. Yeah, I like it. I will tell Nora also. 

00:44:48 Hannah 

You end up with one. Yeah, one rope. 

00:44:51 Hannah 

But it’s made-up of three individual parts that all weave in amongst each other, cause that’s essentially what’s going on, I think. 

00:44:59 Nahuai 

That’s pretty visual. Yeah, I like it. 

00:45:03 Hannah 

That good that would be helpful. But you know. 

00:45:07 Hannah 

I think this point about. 

00:45:11 Hannah 

Sustainability being about long term jevity, I mean it’s something you and I have talked about so much. Both of us came from freelancing background. Both of us want to put more time into the WordPress community. You know we’ve both done our fair shares of community organizing, running, meet ups, attending word camps. 

00:45:31 Hannah 

You know, contribute to days et cetera. 

00:45:35 Hannah 

And you know, as you as you know and I know that this was the last part that we wanted to get onto as I was quite involved in helping you. And I, I feel that it was very. 

00:45:43 Hannah 

Much about me. 

00:45:44 Hannah 

Facilitating you. But I was very much involved in you wanting to get a sustainability team, landed in WordPress and. 

00:45:54 Hannah 

You set some meetings up and we were meeting regularly and it resulted in us. Well, you figuring out. 

00:46:01 Hannah 

How do we get a post on the Make WordPress blog? You found the way and I with the help of others wrote that post and and put it up there to sort of start talking about the need for a sustainability team but I couldn’t carry on with the work after we put that post out because of those issues. 

00:46:21 Hannah 

We talked about I was working as a freelance. 

00:46:23 Hannah 

Sir, or I’m trying to start doing my role at the Green Web Foundation. 

00:46:27 Hannah 

And I just couldn’t keep doing that level. 

00:46:29 Hannah 

Of work for free. 

00:46:32 Hannah 

Yeah, I just couldn’t. I just couldn’t financially make it work. And so you and I both feel so passionate about this idea. 

00:46:39 Hannah 

Of the long term sustainability of WordPress in terms of opening up funding to people who aren’t working for big companies who can? 

00:46:49 Hannah 

You know, therefore, dedicate their skills and expertise and most importantly, their unique perspective into the work of the project and and particularly from a sustainability angle. But I know that you know there’s other teams that that would benefit from those diverse viewpoints. 

00:47:08 Hannah 

As well, of course. 

00:47:09 Nahuai 

Yeah, sure, sure. 

00:47:10 Nahuai 

Yeah, that, that, that part is really close to to my heart and I’m really blessed by being in the right moment with the right people or I feel like I I also try to put my, my energy and my enthusiasm on that. But really when I go back and think. 

00:47:31 Nahuai 

How the things started, it’s like, wow, this is really interesting because I start. 

00:47:37 Nahuai 

Talking with you, just I reach you and I say, Hannah, I think we have a lot of things I we would like to talk about it. How do you feel about? 

00:47:45 Nahuai 

It about, sure. 

00:47:47 Nahuai 

And that was one of the points. But the other was not asking to Matt and Josepha in work camp Europe about the sustainability. 

00:47:56 Nahuai 

And I was kind of part of of it because she was before doing the questions. She was asking me. 

00:48:03 Nahuai 

What I could ask, and we were just brainstorming, so I was kind of part of it. Nora was the the the face, and she did great asking it and Josepha open in that moment or or say that we could open them, someone could open the slack channel for sustainability. So we already had. Yeah. 


And which probably. 

00:48:23 Hannah 

We should probably just say that that was a wood Cam Europe 2022, wasn’t it, that you’re you’re referring to? Yeah, in in Porto. Ohh damn. Yeah. 

00:48:30 Nahuai 

Right. Important. Important. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 

00:48:38 Nahuai 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was. The the one after the pandemic. And it was. 

00:48:43 Nahuai 

So that that was a really nice starting point to have. So basically just if I created the space, so it was OK, there is people interested. OK, let’s go there and start talking. And there the there were some talking already there. But as you know for starting things you you tried to you have. 

00:49:02 Nahuai 

To link with other people that is willing to put quite a lot of time to to push it forward. So Tyson said also join and after after that we were the five of us with the idea of, OK, we have the the slack channel, but maybe a lot of people doesn’t know about it. So maybe we should. 

00:49:23 Nahuai 

Cost in make and maybe we should ask the Community what they feel that could go under the sustainability team and that was the first part and you were really involved on that. Indeed we we really missed you sustainability. 

00:49:40 Nahuai 

Because as I told you, we really feel like you were part of the engine. But as you explained, you had other roles and new requirements and you couldn’t spend that time. So we move forward and then I don’t want to talk too much about how the team was created because I want to dedicate. 

00:50:00 Nahuai 

A episode with and I will bring also Nora face and Saba to talk about it, but I just wanted to do a short overview and acknowledge that Hannah was part of this. 

00:50:13 Nahuai 

Shell energy that was there and also yeah. Give you thanks again for it. 

00:50:21 Hannah 

It’s a pleasure. 

00:50:21 Nahuai 

And for facilitating, yeah. 

00:50:23 Hannah 

It’s it’s a pleasure. I mean, it was. It was a. That was a hard piece of work. I mean, Nora did a really brave thing by standing up in Word camp Europe and asking the question. It was really great because she was nervous as well, wasn’t she, you know, she. 

00:50:29 Nahuai 

Yeah, yeah. 

00:50:35 Nahuai 

Yeah. Also we are. 


Did a really good job. 

00:50:38 Nahuai 

We are not native speaking people, so we sometimes we forget about it. We we don’t the the people that we are doing therefore. But I think that there is an overall good level of English speaking people in the, in the Community and sometimes when some people arrive, it’s like wow, I need to have like. 

00:50:58 Nahuai 

Quite high level of English too, so Nora was super brave because her English was not the best. Indeed, right now it’s much better and it’s going to keep improving, but super brave. So yeah, plug no right game for for being the the sparkle that. 

00:51:14 Nahuai 

That, yeah, triggered that Slack channel creation so. 

00:51:18 Hannah 

She really did. And I think what she managed to do, I mean, it’s interesting. You talk about an engine. I think what she managed to do was map out a space for someone to put an engine. 

00:51:28 Hannah 

And then the five of us came along and we all started pushing that engine down the hill to start to get it moving. And I think that’s what that first post that we did together did, was it it got that. 

00:51:40 Hannah 

Just starting to move. 

00:51:42 Hannah 

Forwards and then I know you’re going. 

00:51:44 Hannah 

To tell the story in future episodes. 

00:51:46 Hannah 

And now that engine is. 

00:51:48 Hannah 

Is moving at its own in its on its own a little bit more. I think there’s still people shoving it behind, but it’s it’s starting to move forwards in its own its own right, and it’s very exciting. 

00:52:00 Hannah 

To see that happen. 

00:52:00 Nahuai 

Yeah. Also we are learning a lot of how the things are done in WordPress because we are newcomers not to WordPress because I’ve been working in WordPress area space for nine years. 

00:52:12 Nahuai 

By now, but how these things go like posting in in better in in make and these kind of things and we try to make everything more transparent with the time. So we are learning the ropes and we went north and I went to the Community Summit and also learned some things. And so that’s also a very interesting. 

00:52:33 Nahuai 

That that probably we will tackle more on that in the in the episode that is dedicated to the sustainability team, but also to to bring the reflection that we start doing things as we thought were the proper way of doing it and there is nothing written about it so. 

00:52:51 Nahuai 

And and we are still learning how to do it because we are an open source community and we want to be open transparent. But I feel like as I said before, sometimes you to get the things started, you have to start like a small group and then say hey, we are doing this join please. 

00:53:09 Hannah 

Yeah, absolutely. It takes a certain amount of bravery to kind of step out and be like, hey, we’re doing this and we might not have got everything right. But we’re trying and we want to move things. 

00:53:20 Hannah 

Words and I think that I think it might just be nice just to say that those 3 pillars of sustainability were very much in the core of our thinking right from the beginning because we did that website. I’ve I’ve forgotten the URL was it RWP. 

00:53:35 Nahuai 

Our sustainability, yeah, I will put the link to it. Also, I did it and I have the, the, the, the thing, but. 

00:53:42 Nahuai 

Our sustainability, our sustainability, well, I I will search for it. Yeah, sorry. 

00:53:48 Hannah 

This but right from the beginning we we set out a vision of what we thought sustainability could mean in WordPress as a starting point. It was always meant to be an igniter of conversations, not a fatal complete. You know, it was never presented as. 

00:54:04 Hannah 

And and within that you’ll see lots of ideas around each of the three pillars. You’ll be able to see things around environment CO2 measurement, for example. You’ll see things around society are the social pillar of diversity inclusion, and you’ll see things around economics. 


The the, the OR. 

00:54:22 Hannah 

The G pillar, which is around funding. 

00:54:25 Hannah 

You know, having a more diverse group of people so that that thinking was baked in right from the beginning. I. 

00:54:31 Hannah 

Think as well. 

00:54:33 Nahuai 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe we didn’t do a. 

00:54:36 Nahuai 

Enough good work to to communicate it, because in some point there were some feeling that we were changing years when we were we, when we became to an official team. But that part I think we will talk more about it when when we do the dedicated episode also I was saying it right that there is. 

00:54:56 Nahuai 

Our sustainableweb.com I will link it in the show notes so you can go there and see. 

00:55:03 Nahuai 

Our vision of the IT was like more than one year ago, I think. 


Yeah. No. Yeah, yeah. 

00:55:11 Nahuai 

No, something like that. Yeah, more or less. More or less. Let’s say. OK, so. 


Yeah, that’s a good a. 

00:55:14 Hannah 

Good website we did there and low carbon as well, wasn’t it very efficient? 

00:55:21 Nahuai 

Yeah, yeah. And it is a slideshow that is built in WordPress, so it’s pretty cool. So you can move just like an slideshow, but it’s built in a block theme and everything with WordPress. So I think it was, it was pretty cool. 

00:55:37 Nahuai 

It’s still pretty cool. Anyway, I think this episode. 

00:55:38 Hannah 

It’s very it’s very cool, yes. 

00:55:43 Nahuai 

Achieve what I was looking for, that is explain how I get to it and how. Hannah, it’s been people tell in every point of of my journey and how her journey meme is kind of parallel some points to to mine and also to introduce these ideas that I. 

00:56:03 Nahuai 

I we will talk about in the next episodes that are the three pillars of the of the one of pillars. So how how is the name in English of the? 

00:56:13 Hannah 

We would say strands. 

00:56:13 Nahuai 

For the. 

00:56:15 Nahuai 

Strands. OK, OK, we can go. 

00:56:16 Hannah 

Yeah, I think strands. 

00:56:19 Nahuai 

OK, so thanks a lot Hannah for for the time it’s been a delight as always. 

00:56:26 Hannah 

I always love chatting to you and we do always come out with some. 

00:56:29 Hannah 

Great ideas even. 

00:56:30 Hannah 

Even though we’re not expecting to, we always do. So thank you. Thank. 

00:56:33 Hannah 

You as well. 

00:56:35 Nahuai 

Yeah, I hope you enjoyed the episode as much as we did. And yes, in the next episodes, listen to you. Listen to me the next episodes, whatever it say podcast bye bye. 

Nahuai Badiola Avatar


  • hannah Smith

    Hannah Smith

    Role: Director of Operations on The Green Web Foundation

    Bio: Based in the South West of the UK, I work with SMEs who want to understand and improve the sustainability of the digital tech they’re responsible for.

2 responses to “Episode 1: How I learned what sustainability is”

  1. Mara Avatar

    Very interesting subject. Congratulations!

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